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Amazing. I also have had the experience of this search (Other religions, Other channeled works, History, Church History etc) and have come to these conclusions. Very refreshing. Is there a community organized to teach this? Should there be? It is my opinion that if there were many pot luck dinners would ensue lol. Thanks for this article.
I really appreciate what you guys are doing. I feel like you are truly seeking with out of the box thinking.
One thing you are still sticking to narratives that the church has given us is Joseph Smith started polygamy. I feel like it’s your time to really explore this.
It’s time members awake to our awful situation but also the beauty of truth. There is much there to seek and find!
A good start is Rob Fotheringham’s videos (who is a faithful LDS and worked for the church) and see where the Lord takes you and teaches you. Good luck in your further journey.
Hey Lance, I saw you on Zion Media. I am LDS. Have you ever heard of Jason Breshears from archaix? He is the worlds leading chronologist, and there is definitely some overlap with your work, and his work. The man has published many books, and has a youtube channel. His work supports the Mormon worldview, though he is not Mormon. Please let me know even if its a quick yes or now. If no, check him out and let me know what you think. His work is impeccable.
nope. Hadn’t heard of him… I’ll check him out.
Lance,
Thank you so much for making your research available, I’ve only scratched the surface but love what you have done so much! Thank you for following the spirit and sharing.
I have been reading the book of JACHANAN BEN KATHRYN and find so much beauty and love in the text. Chapter 4 had my heart burning with its poetry, I can’t wait to read the rest.
Thank you so much!
Just as an add-on to my last comment on what I was talking. I am not suggesting that Hallucinogenics replace the atonement, prayer, repentance, etc for connecting with God, but I am convinced that the combination of Hallucinogenics and traditional tools of the gospel of Jesus Christ, as weird as this will sound to many, is an extremely powerful combination. Hallucinogenics are extremely good at helping one recognize how one’s choices are affecting their life, an existential step in daily repentance. The cathartic utility of them is incredible indeed. I learned during my Ayahuasca session, that I was being way too hard on those around me, especially family members. Mercy, was something I was very much lacking at that point in my life. A close friend of mine did Ayahuasca about the same time as me. He had just been divorced and basically dumped by his recent ex-wife, who had just used him to get through school towards her doctorate and get her American citizenship and go rid of him when he was no longer needed. This friend also has treatment resistant depression and has been known to be suicidal when he gets really low or off his meds. It was revealed to him towards the end of his Ayahuasca session, that people around him love him more than he ever realized. This gave him the strength to make it through the grueling first year after getting a messy divorce. Second, they are very good at helping one feel their true eternal nature, similar very major life events or sacred places like the temple. Third, they help one see the long view. On a personal not, I had a psilocybin session and I saw a vision that time had ended and this life had gone by in the blink of an eye. Needless to say, it gave me more urgency to make needed changes in my life after that. I think it is vital missing piece in the gospel.
If this is hell , does that mean we earned (negatively) our place here?
Anyone have a line at getting a copy of Oahspe?
Hi Lance,
I appreciate your dedication to seeeking truth and I enjoy learning your points of view. I had a question regarding commentary suggesting that as we approach oneness that we become like cells vibrating within a single God. [Forgive the poor paraphrasing there.] Is it your position that we retain our individuality but share united pupose? Or is your belief more that the eternal purpose of divine consciousness is to literally return to a single source/ universal consciousness? If so, please provide your thoughts on the following excerpt from the Sermon in the Grove:
[Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. “Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me.” “Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are.” All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster. I want to read the text to you myself—”I am agreed with the Father and the Father is agreed with me, and we are agreed as one.” The Greek shows that it should be agreed. “Father, I pray for them which Thou hast given me out of the world, and not for those alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be agreed, as Thou, Father, art with me, and I with Thee, that they also may be agreed with us,” and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods; and then we shall see as we are seen, and be as our God and He as His Father.]
“To go no more out.” I am astounded at the thought of this concept! I am LDS and have taken a deep dive into The Sacred Record of the Nemenhah. In the Book of the High Place (Tuhhuhl Nuhmehm) page 49 verse 98 – 99 speaks clearly of this doctrine.
” The Father: This is the World of Our Firstborn, who has progressed almost to the end of the mortal cycle….It is the only way that the Natural Man may be subdued and the Spiritual Man, or Man of Holiness, arises out of corrupt matter and becomes master of it. In the final phase, the Firstborn will take on mortality one last time to overcome it. In the last of the Lives and the Deaths, He will become exalted with all of His Creation. Then shall all matter become His.
I started reading The Sacred Record of the Nemenhah as a sceptic. I truly believe that it is another record preserved for these last days. It prophecies of the errors of The Church in the last days because of the pride of the people. I believe that President Nelson has either read this record or he had been instructed by the Lord to start making changes. Many of the errors have been changed or is slowly being changed. Nemenhah means the People of the Spirit. Thousands left by ship with Hagoth and fewer still traveled up the Colorado River and settled northward. They separated themselves because they wanted to walk and talk with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Many of the topics discussed on this site are covered in this record and corresponds with Lance’s conclusions. The Law of Cause and Effect and the Law of Restoration is amazing and right on point with Lance’s teaching. This record is phenomenal! It is a must read!
1. I would love an original copy of the Ben Kathryn workout notes. How can I get one? Also in Hebrew.
2. I just read in Ann Emmerich The Life of Christ (a mystic who became a nun, approx 1800) that the Egyptians were jealous of the Hebrews geneology and ancient cred, so they made up fake kings to extend their timeline to make them seem more ancient.
see links at bottom of page. https://gatheredin.one/94/introduction-to-oahspe/
For the most part yes. But many who have joined Christ’s cause have undeservedly descended into hell to save souls.
workout notes? what does that mean? The text was only online for a few years before its author (an acquaintance of John) took down the entire site. I did not download the Hebrew version. Likely the Hebrew version still exists somewhere on a Hebrew site.
Lance. I’ve been following you lately on Zion Media and other places. I agree with almost everything you have testified and shown evidence on.
I have believed in reincarnation for a few years. I have also been shown things in dreams and visions that don’t align with my traditional LDS beliefs. However, I love the church with all it imperfections, and feel that all members need to rise about tradition and the world in order to get more light, knowledge, and understanding.
I have worked in recruiting for years, and make a good living, but am most passionate about standing up for freedom, liberty, but most especially learning and gaining by better spiritual perspectives.
I have now read the Gospel of the holy 12, gone west, and have a copy of the Kolbrin and Zohar.
Also have read much of your teachings on to go no more out or gathered in one and love Ben Kathryn’s revelations. They spiritually speak to me.
I love the B of M and JS teachings along with Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Alma and many others.
Please send me more on other things to learn and study.
Thanks
Lance, I’ll tackle each part of your question to me on YouTube one at a time. The first one I’ll address here is where I place the land of Bountiful:
Going strictly from the text, I place Bountiful east of the river Sidon, east of Zarahemla, south of the land Desolation and the small neck of land, south of Sea South, southwest of the narrow pass, north of the city of Nephi, west of the East Wilderness, and south latitude of both Sea East and Sea West.
The river Sidon is inferred to be in a north to south orientation based off the battle descriptions in Alma 2 and Alma 43, where everything is happening to the east or west of Sidon. The battle in Alma 2 is north of the head of the river Sidon, and the battle in Alma 43 occurred south of the head of the river Sidon. The river appeared much easier to cross during the battle in the north than the one in the south, therefore, I believe the river Sidon flowed from north to south and the head of the river Sidon is a major confluence of rivers. That would also mean the dead bodies from the battle floated out to a sea or ocean to the south, and the headwaters would be in the North Wilderness or the Wilderness Hermounts north of Zarahemla. The narrow strip of wilderness runs from east to west by the head of the river Sidon in Alma 22:27. I don’t believe that is talking about the directionality of the river, which I believe is confirmed by the battle descriptions.
Zarahemla was west of Sidon, the head of the river Sidon is on the midpoint somewhere on the narrow strip of wilderness before the narrow strip of wilderness reaches Bountiful on the wilderness side. I believe the “wilderness side” in Alma 22 could refer to the East Wilderness in this case. It’s the land Bountiful that is threatened when the Lamanites have success on the east side when taking Nephihah and all the cities that were built in the East Wilderness after Moroni had driven the Lamanites out. Therefore, Bountiful is on the east side of Nephite lands, and Zarahemla is on the west side of Nephite lands. The center of the lands would lie between them.
In Alma 22, the narrow strip of wilderness would be in the shape of a “U” since it runs “round about” with one end starting at the North Wilderness and seashore of Sea West [I’d say it’s the west shoreline], and its other end ending on the seashore of Sea East [I’d say it’s the south shoreline of Sea East] after running through the borders of Manti and by the head of the river Sidon, both of which are south of Zarahemla and Bountiful. Add to that the migration and settlement of the land of Desolation in Helaman 3. I believe the Four Cardinal Seas mentioned in verse 8 are around the land of Desolation rather than all lands of the Book of Mormon. This could imply two more seas in the north between Sea East and Sea West. Sea South would then be between Sea East and Sea West and north of the land of Bountiful. There would be some separation between the seas providing for the small neck between Sea West and Sea South, and the narrow pass between Sea South and Sea East.
I place the narrow pass northeast from Bountiful based off the border dispute between the cities of Lehi and Morianton (Alma 50:25–35). The people of Morianton were traveling toward the narrow pass from the seashore of the East Wilderness, and Teancum and his men were coming from Moroni’s camp in the land of Bountiful. Teancum and his men were Moroni’s elite troops and would have marched far faster than the people of Morianton. Therefore, I think the narrow pass would be to the northeast from Bountiful.
The Land of Nephi has wilderness to the west “in” it. There is wilderness to the west “of” Zarahemla, but it is uncertain if that wilderness extended south latitude of Zarahemla, though the river Sidon could provide a logical border between the land of Nephi and possible west wilderness west “of” Nephi. It feels to me like the city of Nephi is either centralized or more to the east side of the land of Nephi. That means it would probably line up straight south of Bountiful and southeast from Zarahemla. The King of the Lamanites sent messengers round about in every direction. I think that clause is tied with the clause that says the land of Nephi was “bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west”. If the combined description is, “round about in every direction even unto the sea” could potentially mean a seashore stretching from directly east of the city of Nephi, continuing round about until the seashore would be stretching to the west from the viewpoint perspective from the city of Nephi. That would match with a south flowing Sidon River where the dead bodies thrown into it could have gone out to sea. That would be a sea/possibly an ocean to the south of the land of Nephi.
I believe the Heartland Model fits the text most accurately, and the placement of things based off the above description is thus:
Sea North: Lake Huron
Sea South: Lake Erie
Sea East: Lake Ontario
Sea West: Lake Michigan
The land of Desolation: Lower Michigan Peninsula and the Ontario Peninsula with some settlements southward down and around Lake Erie.
The small neck: The base of the Lower Michigan Peninsula that used to be much narrower when the water level of the great lakes was around 13 feet deeper during the Nephite timeline.
The narrow pass: The Niagara Escarpment connecting the Ontario Peninsula to New York State.
The river Sidon: The Mississippi River
The head of the river Sidon: The confluence of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers.
The land of Zarahemla: Predominantly Iowa
The land of Bountiful: Predominantly Ohio
The East Wilderness: The eastern United States east of the Appalachians down to around the border of South Carolina
The West Wilderness west “of” Zarahemla: The Great Plains west of Iowa
The North Wilderness: Wisconsin and south Minnesota
The Wilderness Hermounts: north Minnesota
In connection with my comment on the use of the term “sea” as it could apply to rivers anciently, I would say a good candidate for the “west sea, south” (Alma 53:8) and the west sea by the borders of the land on the south (Alma 53:22), on the Heartland Model, would be the Missouri River with its large floodplain from Sioux City to St. Louis.
I believe the waters of Ripliancum is the Atlantic Ocean. The interpretation of Ripliancum is “large, or to exceed all” (Ether 15:8). Irreantum, is interpreted as “many waters” (1 Nephi 17:5), and is an ocean, which is “large, or to exceed all”. I think the similarity of terms and interpretation between Ripliancum and Irreantum, points to both of them being oceans.
The waters of Ripliancum positioning:
My assumptions are based off of Joseph Smith identifying the Hill Cumorah in New York as THE Hill Cumorah and Lake Ontario as Sea East in the Zelph Mound account. On that foundation, if the people spreading throughout the land “from sea south to sea north, from sea west to sea east” (Helaman 3:8) is referring specifically to the land of Desolation, then the Lower Peninsula of Michigan and the Ontario Peninsula would be the land of Desolation surrounded by the Four Cardinal Seas, which would fit with Lake Ontario as Sea East.
The land of Moron, where the King of the Jaredites dwelt, was near Desolation (Ether 7:6). The Jaredites had landed in the north. The land of Moron was west of the land of Cumorah (Ether 9:3), but likely not by the small neck of land because there may have been too many poisonous serpents in that area, even then. The Ontario Peninsula looks like it was sparsely populated. There are many Adena mound sites concentrated in the Lower Peninsula of Michigan, and the old Native American trails have their focal point in the area at Detroit. That indicates a place of great importance, and the Great Mound that was once in the area is an indication of a lot of conflict there as well. Therefore, Detroit is my choice for the location for the capital city of the Jaredites.
In Ether 9:3, Omer is warned by God to depart out of the land. Omer couldn’t have fled south because the way was likely blocked by poisonous serpents that weren’t destroyed to open that way south until generations later in Ether 10:19. Therefore, I believe he would have fled eastward from Moron away from highly populated areas to avoid witnesses to his travels. From the Detroit area he could have traveled many days (about 120 miles) before reaching the hilly region of the Ontario Peninsula, where the hill Shim could be located. Then eastward from there to where to the Nephites were destroyed. Omar settled in Ablom eastward from Cumorah by the seashore, may have been by Lake Ontario, since they don’t identify Ripliancum yet. That also establishes settlements that the final armies can sweep before them in the final conflict in that direction.
The valley of Corihor and the valley of Shurr (Ether 14:28), I believe would be northeast from Cumorah, possibly in the State of Maine, because then they flee from the area of those valleys, is when they finally name the waters of Ripliancum (Ether 15:7–8). After having reached the shores of Ripliancum is when they turn south and end up back at Cumorah. Ogath would be near Cumorah (Ether 15:10–11). The armies, from there, could have travelled south along the shoreline of Ripliancum/the Atlantic Ocean until they reached the area of the State of Massachusetts, at which point there is an old Indian trail they could have followed to get through the mountainous area more easily, and back to Cumorah
The middle region where the Grand River Indian Trail crosses the Lower Peninsula of Michigan appears bare of Adena mound sites, and would be my candidate for the wilderness of Akish (Ether 14:14), and the Plains of Agosh, I would place in the area of Saginaw and Bay City, Michigan, because then there are sites indicating inhabitants Coriantumr would have been gathering with him as he fled to a lower elevation and flat open area (Ether 14:16). I think the carnage would have focused on passing through the most populous region, which for the Adena, would be Ohio, and on a diagonal up into the southwest area of New York State (Ether 14:17–25). The seashore in Ether 14:26, could possibly be either Lake Ontario or along the St. Lawrence Seaway.
Anyway, I’d be interested to hear others’ thoughts on these ideas of mine.
Would you still like to do an in-person meeting or a Zoom call? How would you like to go about it? I live in San Antonio, TX. Don’t know if that’s too far away or not.
I had a wonderment on your thoughts of Peleg. Geologically speaking, was the earth divided during Peleg’s time?
Thank you!
Yep, lets do it. Things are a bit busy right now, but I’ll hit you up when some time opens up.
The Land of Promise and the New Jerusalem:
Ether 13:2–6 states the New Jerusalem will be built upon the Jaredite lands. Doctrine and Covenants 84:1–4 states the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri. Ether 13:20–21 says Coriantumr would live to see other people inherit the lands of the Jaredites, and he would receive a burial by them. That would mean the Mulekites, at least, would be settling in Jaredite lands. I believe the Mulekites and Lehites settled in the Jaredite hunting preserve (Ether 10:19), and the land of Desolation was the Jaredite Civilization core where most of them lived. The Mulekites had first landed in the land of Desolation (Alma 22:30), but I think they didn’t settle there or close by because they didn’t want to settle in the land of rotting Jaredite corpses.
Independence, Missouri, was called the center place of the land of promise (Doctrine and Covenants 57:1–3). Rod Meldrum has suggested Independence, Missouri, is roughly the center place of the contiguous United States. A more correct center of the contiguous United States would be Lebanon, Kansas 267 miles to the west. However, Independence, Missouri, does fit being the center point between “the hill Cumorah or east sea to the Rocky Mountains” as described in the Zelph Mound account. Therefore, I’d say the borders of the Promised Land would be more like the borders of the United States in 1830 when the Church was restored. It wouldn’t need to be exact, but I think they roughly overlap. I’d say the main events of the Book of Mormon happened in that area, which is right where the Heartland Model is. I don’t see any other model lining up with those revelations.
“I don’t see any other model lining up with those revelations”… uhhh. except mine. Jaredites spanned the whole North American continent, just like Joseph Smith taught. Everyone of those scriptures fits perfectly with my model. My model includes the heartland and Meso lands. But independently, BOTH those models have insurmountable issues. See my article which goes through those issues one by one. https://gatheredin.one/9552/comparing-book-of-mormon-geography-models/
Hello! I have stumbled upon your blog and I have found quite a bit that I agree with. I have actually come to some similar conclusions independently. I read your beliefs page on the nature of God and His place in the (near) infinite hierarchy, and I definitely agree on some of those points. I am curious to know if you have looked much at Platonism or Neoplatonism, with the ideas of the Good or the One, and the theurgy of Iamblichus. I think I have managed to integrate these ideas into my LDS framework, and I wanted to know your thoughts on such philosophy. Additionally, I am curious if you have gone in depth on the Christian Mystics like Meister Eckhart or Nicholas of Cusa and dealing with their panentheism and apophatic theology.
Thanks, Vic
I think many of the channeled texts which have helped shape my worldview (in the ‘texts’ section of my website) have ideas in common with Platonism or Neoplatonism. But I haven’t heard of any other names you mention… I’ll have to check them out. 🙂